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	<title>Comments on: Tithing (Giving) While in Debt</title>
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	<link>http://www.moneyhelpforchristians.com/tithing-debt/</link>
	<description>Bible &#38; Money Blog &#124; Make money, budget, give, get out of debt, invest</description>
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		<title>By: JC Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.moneyhelpforchristians.com/tithing-debt/comment-page-1/#comment-7209</link>
		<dc:creator>JC Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jun 2010 19:08:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.moneyhelpforchristians.com/tithing-giving-while-in-debt/#comment-7209</guid>
		<description>Craig,

Great blog.  I&#039;m really excited to see your spiritual and pragmatic approach to finances as well as the great personal finance tool reviews.

Our church doesn&#039;t use tithing terminology but i definitely agree that most Christians would relate that term to giving to God.  My thoughts over the last decade of life and ministry are that the tithe is the minimum we should consider in our offering to God.  Greed, materialism, the worries of this life, and riches are dangerous devices used by satan to deceive Believers.  I haven&#039;t made a contribution to my Church in years but I make an offering to my God every time I have a financial blessing (income tax return, pay check, etc...).

Keep up the goog work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Craig,</p>
<p>Great blog.  I&#8217;m really excited to see your spiritual and pragmatic approach to finances as well as the great personal finance tool reviews.</p>
<p>Our church doesn&#8217;t use tithing terminology but i definitely agree that most Christians would relate that term to giving to God.  My thoughts over the last decade of life and ministry are that the tithe is the minimum we should consider in our offering to God.  Greed, materialism, the worries of this life, and riches are dangerous devices used by satan to deceive Believers.  I haven&#8217;t made a contribution to my Church in years but I make an offering to my God every time I have a financial blessing (income tax return, pay check, etc&#8230;).</p>
<p>Keep up the goog work.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig</title>
		<link>http://www.moneyhelpforchristians.com/tithing-debt/comment-page-1/#comment-6939</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jun 2010 06:49:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.moneyhelpforchristians.com/tithing-giving-while-in-debt/#comment-6939</guid>
		<description>Hey everyone.  Thanks for the great discussion.
@concerned christian
I agree that if God wanted people to tithe and that was a command if I said something different than God then that would be bad news.  However, I do not believe the tithe is a law.
I certainly hope my journey to heaven will not be dependent on anything I do.  And yes, I will continue to read the Word.
@Linda
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.  Every church denomination has very different teachings about giving, tithing,a nd stewardship.  It is obvious by people&#039;s responses what their local church teaches.
@Interested Reader
I completely agree that giving is not an action of justification - we don&#039;t earn salvation by giving.  However, I think Paul would agree that giving is an act of the sanctified (2 Cor. 8-10).  Paul is not willynilly about giving.  It&#039;s not a do it if you want to approach to giving.  Giving is important and it completes something in us as Christians.  I have no problem encouraging people to give.  I don&#039;t think that is legalistic in any way.  
@Frank Chase Jr.
I&#039;ve been trying to see where the tithe and giving or &quot;two distinct functions and contents&quot;.  I&#039;m trying to figure out what that means.  Could you please give me an example so that I can more fully explore this topic?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey everyone.  Thanks for the great discussion.<br />
@concerned christian<br />
I agree that if God wanted people to tithe and that was a command if I said something different than God then that would be bad news.  However, I do not believe the tithe is a law.<br />
I certainly hope my journey to heaven will not be dependent on anything I do.  And yes, I will continue to read the Word.<br />
@Linda<br />
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.  Every church denomination has very different teachings about giving, tithing,a nd stewardship.  It is obvious by people&#8217;s responses what their local church teaches.<br />
@Interested Reader<br />
I completely agree that giving is not an action of justification &#8211; we don&#8217;t earn salvation by giving.  However, I think Paul would agree that giving is an act of the sanctified (2 Cor. 8-10).  Paul is not willynilly about giving.  It&#8217;s not a do it if you want to approach to giving.  Giving is important and it completes something in us as Christians.  I have no problem encouraging people to give.  I don&#8217;t think that is legalistic in any way.<br />
@Frank Chase Jr.<br />
I&#8217;ve been trying to see where the tithe and giving or &#8220;two distinct functions and contents&#8221;.  I&#8217;m trying to figure out what that means.  Could you please give me an example so that I can more fully explore this topic?</p>
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		<title>By: Interested Reader</title>
		<link>http://www.moneyhelpforchristians.com/tithing-debt/comment-page-1/#comment-6935</link>
		<dc:creator>Interested Reader</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jun 2010 00:53:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.moneyhelpforchristians.com/tithing-giving-while-in-debt/#comment-6935</guid>
		<description>And, we don&#039;t give tithes to earn anything by the way.  We don&#039;t get to heaven by giving tithes.  Jesus paid it all.  It is finished.  Nothing we can - not by our own righteousness but according to HIS mercy, He saved us!  Glory.
Giving comes out of a heart that is set free by knowing Jesus paid it all.  Giving is an act of thankfulness, not an obligation or pain or requirement.
Legalism has no place in the life of believers.  We can follow the truth and the Truth will set us free.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And, we don&#8217;t give tithes to earn anything by the way.  We don&#8217;t get to heaven by giving tithes.  Jesus paid it all.  It is finished.  Nothing we can &#8211; not by our own righteousness but according to HIS mercy, He saved us!  Glory.<br />
Giving comes out of a heart that is set free by knowing Jesus paid it all.  Giving is an act of thankfulness, not an obligation or pain or requirement.<br />
Legalism has no place in the life of believers.  We can follow the truth and the Truth will set us free.</p>
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		<title>By: Interested Reader</title>
		<link>http://www.moneyhelpforchristians.com/tithing-debt/comment-page-1/#comment-6934</link>
		<dc:creator>Interested Reader</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jun 2010 00:48:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.moneyhelpforchristians.com/tithing-giving-while-in-debt/#comment-6934</guid>
		<description>Back again, and enjoying the discussion, which in my case today, is timely.  Our sermon today was on Malachi and the tithe.  Our pastor is studious and careful, and presented a sermon that was balanced and freeing.  He shared various tithes that we saw in the Bible - old testament before the law, old testament after the law.  He shared about one-time tithes that Abraham did, and that was not even on his own stuff - it was on spoils - for Melchizedek.  He talked about tithes for the Levites, for the poor, the widow, the orphan  He talked about bringing tithes for festivals - if you could not carry it, sell it and bring money to buy food at the end of your journey to celebrate.  He reminded us of freewill offerings such for the purpose of building the temple, and that they received so much they had to ask the people to stop - when have we had that situation in modern day....?  In the end of it all, we come to the new testament, where we see the pharisees tithing and being proud and arrogant about it.  The final conclusion we arrived at the end of the sermon : God no longer is demanding a tithe - we are His completely, not under the law, but under grace.  God loves a cheerful giver - we can give whatever we choose and joyfully.  If God is speaking to you to tithe, then do so.  If he speaks to you to give offerings, do so.  Don&#039;t limit it to that.  Everything we have is His when we are His, so don&#039;t hang on to stuff too tightly.  He will bless you when give beyond what you are able in certain circumstances.  Again, the need to be LED by The SPIRIT.  If you are sitting in a church that is wacking you over the head to give tithes, and offerings, and over and aboves, and above over and above, and the leadership is rich and fat, you should rethink WHERE you are giving.  Don&#039;t stop giving, just change where it goes.  If there are people hungry in your church and widows and orphans in need, and the church is rich and fat, rethink your giving, but don&#039;t stop giving.  I am now free.  Glory.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Back again, and enjoying the discussion, which in my case today, is timely.  Our sermon today was on Malachi and the tithe.  Our pastor is studious and careful, and presented a sermon that was balanced and freeing.  He shared various tithes that we saw in the Bible &#8211; old testament before the law, old testament after the law.  He shared about one-time tithes that Abraham did, and that was not even on his own stuff &#8211; it was on spoils &#8211; for Melchizedek.  He talked about tithes for the Levites, for the poor, the widow, the orphan  He talked about bringing tithes for festivals &#8211; if you could not carry it, sell it and bring money to buy food at the end of your journey to celebrate.  He reminded us of freewill offerings such for the purpose of building the temple, and that they received so much they had to ask the people to stop &#8211; when have we had that situation in modern day&#8230;.?  In the end of it all, we come to the new testament, where we see the pharisees tithing and being proud and arrogant about it.  The final conclusion we arrived at the end of the sermon : God no longer is demanding a tithe &#8211; we are His completely, not under the law, but under grace.  God loves a cheerful giver &#8211; we can give whatever we choose and joyfully.  If God is speaking to you to tithe, then do so.  If he speaks to you to give offerings, do so.  Don&#8217;t limit it to that.  Everything we have is His when we are His, so don&#8217;t hang on to stuff too tightly.  He will bless you when give beyond what you are able in certain circumstances.  Again, the need to be LED by The SPIRIT.  If you are sitting in a church that is wacking you over the head to give tithes, and offerings, and over and aboves, and above over and above, and the leadership is rich and fat, you should rethink WHERE you are giving.  Don&#8217;t stop giving, just change where it goes.  If there are people hungry in your church and widows and orphans in need, and the church is rich and fat, rethink your giving, but don&#8217;t stop giving.  I am now free.  Glory.</p>
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		<title>By: Linda Danchak</title>
		<link>http://www.moneyhelpforchristians.com/tithing-debt/comment-page-1/#comment-6930</link>
		<dc:creator>Linda Danchak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jun 2010 19:11:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.moneyhelpforchristians.com/tithing-giving-while-in-debt/#comment-6930</guid>
		<description>Great discussion!  It is one that is very needed at this time.  @Gary and concerned citizen...very good points.  It is true that tithing is preached and stewardship is rarely, if ever, preached.  Being in debt is a kind of bondage.  We should, at all times, give prayerfully, seeking the Lord first, and doing it cheerfully.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great discussion!  It is one that is very needed at this time.  @Gary and concerned citizen&#8230;very good points.  It is true that tithing is preached and stewardship is rarely, if ever, preached.  Being in debt is a kind of bondage.  We should, at all times, give prayerfully, seeking the Lord first, and doing it cheerfully.</p>
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		<title>By: cncerned christian</title>
		<link>http://www.moneyhelpforchristians.com/tithing-debt/comment-page-1/#comment-6450</link>
		<dc:creator>cncerned christian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 May 2010 14:37:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.moneyhelpforchristians.com/tithing-giving-while-in-debt/#comment-6450</guid>
		<description>@Craig,thanks for voicing out your concerns on the issue of giving and tithing.It is sad to note that you are giving an allowance to people who consider setting off their tithes for some time.You are actually giving them advice!!I&#039;m not sure if God still wanted peolple to tithe and observe the tithe law,he would agree with you on sidestepping obeying his law for a few months!In any case,u say when Jesus said&quot;Why do u persecute me&quot;to Saul,he meant the church.That&#039;s true,but your definition of the&quot;church&quot;seems to be at fault.The church meant the believers and basically if we give to the &quot;church&quot;it must be to each of those poor folk we attend services with who are struggling to make ends meet.That&#039;s what they did in the book of Acts.My advice to you,read the Word.Focus on the truth and you will get to heaven.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Craig,thanks for voicing out your concerns on the issue of giving and tithing.It is sad to note that you are giving an allowance to people who consider setting off their tithes for some time.You are actually giving them advice!!I&#8217;m not sure if God still wanted peolple to tithe and observe the tithe law,he would agree with you on sidestepping obeying his law for a few months!In any case,u say when Jesus said&#8221;Why do u persecute me&#8221;to Saul,he meant the church.That&#8217;s true,but your definition of the&#8221;church&#8221;seems to be at fault.The church meant the believers and basically if we give to the &#8220;church&#8221;it must be to each of those poor folk we attend services with who are struggling to make ends meet.That&#8217;s what they did in the book of Acts.My advice to you,read the Word.Focus on the truth and you will get to heaven.</p>
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		<title>By: Gary Arnold</title>
		<link>http://www.moneyhelpforchristians.com/tithing-debt/comment-page-1/#comment-6292</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Arnold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 May 2010 02:21:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.moneyhelpforchristians.com/tithing-giving-while-in-debt/#comment-6292</guid>
		<description>Actually, the solution, for the future, is to educate the young while still in school.

You hit on a big problem.  People live above their means and thus have little, if any, left to spend.  IF people would pray before they buy that expensive house, car, or other item(s) maybe The Spirit would direct them to buy something they could easily afford.

I really don&#039;t disagree with you that maybe some should sell their luxury items if they aren&#039;t able to be a generous giver.  It would seem to me that the giver-at-heart would live BELOW their means in order that they would have more left to give.

Too many Christians have missed the important stewardship teachings of the Bible and wind up slaves to their debtors.  Church leaders aren&#039;t helping the situation by continually asking for tithes and offerings.  They should be teaching good stewardship habits which, unfortunately, few pastors seem to possess themselves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, the solution, for the future, is to educate the young while still in school.</p>
<p>You hit on a big problem.  People live above their means and thus have little, if any, left to spend.  IF people would pray before they buy that expensive house, car, or other item(s) maybe The Spirit would direct them to buy something they could easily afford.</p>
<p>I really don&#8217;t disagree with you that maybe some should sell their luxury items if they aren&#8217;t able to be a generous giver.  It would seem to me that the giver-at-heart would live BELOW their means in order that they would have more left to give.</p>
<p>Too many Christians have missed the important stewardship teachings of the Bible and wind up slaves to their debtors.  Church leaders aren&#8217;t helping the situation by continually asking for tithes and offerings.  They should be teaching good stewardship habits which, unfortunately, few pastors seem to possess themselves.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig</title>
		<link>http://www.moneyhelpforchristians.com/tithing-debt/comment-page-1/#comment-6290</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 May 2010 01:51:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.moneyhelpforchristians.com/tithing-giving-while-in-debt/#comment-6290</guid>
		<description>Gary
Thanks for your comment.  Thanks for encouraging me to put my thinking cap on :).

The semantics are difficult here.  There really is no way to know what a person thinks when they hear the word tithe - unless we ask them.  I come from a non-denominational background and I&#039;ve never heard the term The Lord&#039;s Tithe (I just learned something).  I&#039;ll I&#039;m saying is that how one defines a tithe is based on their own background and experience with the word tithe.  I&#039;ll admit that I am coming to find that people do abuse or misuse the word so I&#039;m trying to be more cautious about how I use the word tithe - so that I don&#039;t cause confusion.

I&#039;ve noticed in the comments that we are starting to put ourselves in an awkward position.  It seems as though two options exist.  If you are in debt you can either (1) Give or (2) not give.  What about the third option - sell whatever is keeping you in debt?  I personally would rather do that than stop giving.  It seems extremely greedy to me to say to God - I&#039;ve got this &quot;x&quot; bill or payment so God your no longer at the top of my priority list.  

I would gladly separate payments that are necessary for life from luxuries.  I don’t think God is going to zap anyone for maintaining their humble house payment in lieu of giving.  But, what about someone who has a $250,000 house and $25,000 car who can’t afford to give?   
Wouldn&#039;t it be spiritually healthier to sell the junk and give?

The problem is when people attach themselves to things and this becomes more important than participating in the grace of giving.
I wonder how clear of a distinction we can make between the poor and the church.  The church is the body of Christ.  I agree that too many dollars have been spent on &#039;stuff&#039; to the neglect of the poor, but isn’t a contribution to a church is giving to God?  Jesus said to Paul, “why do you persecute me?”  The “me” in that case was the church.  How we treat the church is a reflection (indirectly ?) on how we treat Jesus.  Right?

The solution (it seems to me) is educating and encouraging church leaders to have a stronger heart for the poor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gary<br />
Thanks for your comment.  Thanks for encouraging me to put my thinking cap on <img src='http://www.moneyhelpforchristians.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> .</p>
<p>The semantics are difficult here.  There really is no way to know what a person thinks when they hear the word tithe &#8211; unless we ask them.  I come from a non-denominational background and I&#8217;ve never heard the term The Lord&#8217;s Tithe (I just learned something).  I&#8217;ll I&#8217;m saying is that how one defines a tithe is based on their own background and experience with the word tithe.  I&#8217;ll admit that I am coming to find that people do abuse or misuse the word so I&#8217;m trying to be more cautious about how I use the word tithe &#8211; so that I don&#8217;t cause confusion.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve noticed in the comments that we are starting to put ourselves in an awkward position.  It seems as though two options exist.  If you are in debt you can either (1) Give or (2) not give.  What about the third option &#8211; sell whatever is keeping you in debt?  I personally would rather do that than stop giving.  It seems extremely greedy to me to say to God &#8211; I&#8217;ve got this &#8220;x&#8221; bill or payment so God your no longer at the top of my priority list.  </p>
<p>I would gladly separate payments that are necessary for life from luxuries.  I don’t think God is going to zap anyone for maintaining their humble house payment in lieu of giving.  But, what about someone who has a $250,000 house and $25,000 car who can’t afford to give?<br />
Wouldn&#8217;t it be spiritually healthier to sell the junk and give?</p>
<p>The problem is when people attach themselves to things and this becomes more important than participating in the grace of giving.<br />
I wonder how clear of a distinction we can make between the poor and the church.  The church is the body of Christ.  I agree that too many dollars have been spent on &#8216;stuff&#8217; to the neglect of the poor, but isn’t a contribution to a church is giving to God?  Jesus said to Paul, “why do you persecute me?”  The “me” in that case was the church.  How we treat the church is a reflection (indirectly ?) on how we treat Jesus.  Right?</p>
<p>The solution (it seems to me) is educating and encouraging church leaders to have a stronger heart for the poor.</p>
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		<title>By: Gary Arnold</title>
		<link>http://www.moneyhelpforchristians.com/tithing-debt/comment-page-1/#comment-6288</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Arnold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 May 2010 01:19:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.moneyhelpforchristians.com/tithing-giving-while-in-debt/#comment-6288</guid>
		<description>The problem with using the term tithing when meaning giving is that the church teaches The Lord&#039;s Tithe (their twisted and re-written version of Leviticus 27:30-33) and includes Malachi 3:8-10 regarding robbing God.  When most church goers hear the word &quot;tithe,&quot; they associate it with The Lord&#039;s Tithe.  Giving is NOT tithing and thus the word tithe should NEVER be used when referring to free-will giving.

It seems the only time I hear the word stewardship in church is when talking about the tithe.  The truth is, stewardship on 100% of one&#039;s income (and time, etc.) should be the concern.  If Christians were properly taught good stewardship, which includes praying and asking for guidance BEFORE any major purchase, they might not be so far in debt.

I personally teach that debts should be paid BEFORE any giving.  Let me clarify.  I am not saying your house and car need to paid off in full before you give, but definitely all monthly expenses should be paid before giving.  The monthly house payment and car payment should be paid BEFORE there is any giving.  To do otherwise is being a POOR STEWARD OF GOD&#039;S MONEY.  Fact is, we would all be better off if we paid cash for everything, including our house and car.  The tens of thousands of dollars we would save in interest could be used to help others.  A good steward would be able to SAVE the money and pay cash.

In the New Testament, Jesus said that when you give to the needy/poor you are giving to Him.  At no time did Jesus say when you give to the church you are giving to Him.  MOST of what is given to a church goes for the building, utilities, salaries, etc.  Very little goes to help the poor.  I do believe that those who attend church should financially support the church, but don&#039;t think that giving is giving to God because it isn&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with using the term tithing when meaning giving is that the church teaches The Lord&#8217;s Tithe (their twisted and re-written version of Leviticus 27:30-33) and includes Malachi 3:8-10 regarding robbing God.  When most church goers hear the word &#8220;tithe,&#8221; they associate it with The Lord&#8217;s Tithe.  Giving is NOT tithing and thus the word tithe should NEVER be used when referring to free-will giving.</p>
<p>It seems the only time I hear the word stewardship in church is when talking about the tithe.  The truth is, stewardship on 100% of one&#8217;s income (and time, etc.) should be the concern.  If Christians were properly taught good stewardship, which includes praying and asking for guidance BEFORE any major purchase, they might not be so far in debt.</p>
<p>I personally teach that debts should be paid BEFORE any giving.  Let me clarify.  I am not saying your house and car need to paid off in full before you give, but definitely all monthly expenses should be paid before giving.  The monthly house payment and car payment should be paid BEFORE there is any giving.  To do otherwise is being a POOR STEWARD OF GOD&#8217;S MONEY.  Fact is, we would all be better off if we paid cash for everything, including our house and car.  The tens of thousands of dollars we would save in interest could be used to help others.  A good steward would be able to SAVE the money and pay cash.</p>
<p>In the New Testament, Jesus said that when you give to the needy/poor you are giving to Him.  At no time did Jesus say when you give to the church you are giving to Him.  MOST of what is given to a church goes for the building, utilities, salaries, etc.  Very little goes to help the poor.  I do believe that those who attend church should financially support the church, but don&#8217;t think that giving is giving to God because it isn&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Interested Reader</title>
		<link>http://www.moneyhelpforchristians.com/tithing-debt/comment-page-1/#comment-5874</link>
		<dc:creator>Interested Reader</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 May 2010 06:59:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.moneyhelpforchristians.com/tithing-giving-while-in-debt/#comment-5874</guid>
		<description>People are in debt because they are charging their giving to credit cards.  Giving should be done with cash only.
I agree with Joel, that we are breaking the commandment of thou shalt not steal by not paying our debts.  The bible does not say Thou shalt tithe.  It does say bring all the tithes in that there will be food in my house.
Many that I know give hilariously while letting their car payment lapse.
So let your conscience be your guide.  It&#039;s harder for a hilarious giver to get serious with their debt, and I agree - being faithful in small things such as paying your bills, will lead you to be faithful in larger things, such as ministry.  So take care of business  God can bless you while you bless others by paying your bills.  After all, the person to whom you owe money, cannot pay give to the Lord if you haven&#039;t paid for the work they did, or the product you purchased.  This discussion is healthy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People are in debt because they are charging their giving to credit cards.  Giving should be done with cash only.<br />
I agree with Joel, that we are breaking the commandment of thou shalt not steal by not paying our debts.  The bible does not say Thou shalt tithe.  It does say bring all the tithes in that there will be food in my house.<br />
Many that I know give hilariously while letting their car payment lapse.<br />
So let your conscience be your guide.  It&#8217;s harder for a hilarious giver to get serious with their debt, and I agree &#8211; being faithful in small things such as paying your bills, will lead you to be faithful in larger things, such as ministry.  So take care of business  God can bless you while you bless others by paying your bills.  After all, the person to whom you owe money, cannot pay give to the Lord if you haven&#8217;t paid for the work they did, or the product you purchased.  This discussion is healthy.</p>
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